Curricula and Learning Links - Classical and Charlotte Mason Methods
Getting Started with Classical Education
Tiff: Can someone explain what "classical" is?
Martha Robinson: Actually "classical" means different things to different people! I've studied this extensively through reading the current books on classical, interviewing many leaders in the classical homeschooling movement (See the review page "classical" section for these interviews!), and reading books that discuss how education was done historically in ancient Greece and Rome, and during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. All education up until about 1890 was considered "classical."
Here is one definition of classical:
"of or characteristic of a form or system felt to be of first significance before modern times"
Here is a definition of classical education:
"Classical education as understood and taught in the middle ages of western civilization is roughly based on the ancient Greek concept of Paideia. China had a completely different tradition of classical education, based in large part on Confucian and Taoist traditions."
From my reading I discovered that the "classical" of many current books is not the same method used in the past. "Classical" of ancient and Renaissance times focuses on LANGUAGE -- studying Greek, Latin, and at least one spoken language in addition to the native tongue -- and how to express oneself with eloquence and clarity. The Bible was a primary text in this method from Renaissance times till 1890. The study of history and wisdom from all sources (the Bible, ancient Greek philosophers, church leaders, etc.) was very important. In Renaissance times the grammar stage came after the child was reading and writing the native language and focused on Latin and Greek grammar. The rhetoric stage came next and addressed expressing oneself in writing and orally. Logic was studied later IF the student had the ability to cover this topic. The quadrivium followed in students with the ability to move on to those topics.
Charlotte Mason was a classical educator who introduced more gentle methods during a period when schoolmasters freely beat their students. She also did things like nature walks when children were cooped up in crowded, dirty cities where disease ran rampant. If you follow her methods, you are doing the classical approach as it had evolved up to the 1800's. There is much more to it than just "living" books, but that is a good start.
Donna: How would I start if I have never used the Trivium before? Can you just jump into it with never having the lower stages? Do you have to re-teach them or can you teach while in another stage?
Martha Robinson: You can start at any age though it is a bit easier if you start younger. I highly recommend starting with Introduction to Classical Studies by Cheryl Lowe. This program can be used by folks of any age but will move much quicker with older kids. It combines Biblical history and principles with study of Roman history and Greek myths. This gives you the background to understand what is going on in history and to understand the many influences on our society from the Greeks and Romans. Also, I would suggest getting going on a Latin program.
Merri: I'd like to start with an 11 year old and a 6 year old. How should I start and what do I need to un-learn from my years in public school?
Martha Robinson: I am a voracious reader and I have devoured everything I have been able to find on classical education. Make sure to get Laura Berquist's Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum and the Bluedorns' Teaching the Trivium. These two books both are faithful to CHRISTIAN classical education; however, their approach is different. If you read the reasons behind their recommendations, you will begin to be able to see what would be best for your children.
While you are feeling your way along, I would definitely recommend the Introduction to Classical Studies that I mentioned above particularly for your older child. With your younger child, you should just be focusing on reading skills and math basics and letting her mind be expanded by quality literature. (We use books on tape from our library in addition to mom's read aloud time and our children's vocabulary is quite remarkable.) She is in the grammar stage so focus on providing great information for her to memorize.
Your older one is ready for Latin. Look through the reviews on the review page and see if one of those sounds like it could work for you.
I also recommend that you check out HomeschoolChristian.com's interviews with Marlin Detweiler (Veritas Press), the Bluedorns, Douglas Wilson (author of Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning), Cheryl Lowe (Latina Christiana), and Karen Craig (Matin Latin.) You will gather tons of info there.
There is not one way to do the Christian Trivium. Your child will pass through the grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric stages regardless of what you do! The particular curricula that you use is up to your family to choose.
Kathleen: How long should you spend on formal schooling each day? TWTM has you at school from 9 till 5!! It seems a bit excessive to me and I will be leaving out the art and music except where it comes in as fun. How much time can I feel is reasonable with 8 and 9 year son and 2 preschoolers?
Heather: I am planning on two 45 minute sessions Monday through Thursday and one 45 minute session on Friday with my 5 year old daughter, and we'll be doing first grade work. With 3/4 grade you're going to start getting into the heavy duty stuff. They should be able to work up to some decent sized passages for memorization. I would definitely keep them in the Grammar stage for at least a year or two, and DON'T start Latin until they're reading at grade level.
Martha R.: This is one of the reasons that I feel folks need to read books in addition to The Well Trained Mind (TWTM). (Try Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum and Teaching the Trivium) TWTM's schedule is unrealistic. Following that to the letter (or even close) is a sure path to burnout for both mom and child. The classical approach is a METHOD, not a set curriculum. You can use many different books in a classical way. Remember that the point during the grammar years is to memorize, but it is also extremely important to develop a love of learning at this time. Pushing too hard will not accomplish that. Your older children could probably be done with everything in a couple of hours and your preschoolers in 1/2 hour to 45 minutes. Now, I'm not saying that they should spend the rest of the day watching TV, but some of the very best learning comes from informal tasks like nature walks (even in the back yard), cooking with mom, field trips, cleaning the house, or building with Legos. I hope this helps. Relax and enjoy these precious years.
Liz: This is where TWTM is totally out of touch. My kids couldn't sit still to save their lives that young. I would like to add that my 10 year old is on track by their standards. He started school at 7 1/2 We spent 1/2 hour/day that year for about 30-40 days. The next year he moved up to about an hour for around 40 days. At 9 we got more serious, about 2 hours 3 days/week most of the school year. Around 5 months worth I think. We have done about the same this year. We have spent time learning to do housework as well. He does all the dishes. He reads in his free time and has been reading Henty books on his own. In my opinion too much school can kill the love of learning. Many of the Classical subjects can be integrated into normal life rather than "school". Read history books together. Fix food from foreign countries then look the places up on the map. Make sure there are lots of good books in the house and no TV or computer to distract the kids.
Brenda: You have to remember that the author of TWTM put those schedules in there as a reference. If you look at her website she tells you how a typical day for her looks. The schedule also includes plenty of playtime and includes music lessons, art/craft time and gymnastics/other sports activities. If you go through each grade level you find it slowly increases in time the actual sit down school work time. For instance, 1st grade is 1.5 hours and thats if it takes you the entire thirty minutes to do handwriting, etc.
DebVA: Can one of you wise ClassEd folks give me some advice?! I *know* that ClassEd is where GOD wants us, but I have so many questions and concerns! I want the kiddos to learn/memorize poetry, scripture, hymn lyrics, etc ~ you know, "Whatsoever is lovely, whatsoever is pure" those are the things I want them thinking on...so I'm on this Classical email loop and everyone is raving about this book (The Harp and Laurel Wreath) and about the "beautifulness" of its contents...then I heard that it is a predominantly Catholic "text" and we are not Catholic... Is it a strictly Catholic book? If so, what makes it so? Is it something we could work around? (A huge number of other questions followed.)
Martha R.: It sounds like you have not found the appropriate way to implement classical education in your home. I recommend that you study a bit more so that you can define your goals for your family. My two favorite authors on the subject are Laura Berquist and Harvey and Laurie Bluedorn. Their styles in achieving classical education are completely different, but both are excellent. Their goals both embrace FAITH as the most important factor in education.
Here are a few places to start reading. Please visit the review page to read about many classical books and curricula. Read the interviews with Laura Berquist, Cheryl Lowe, the Bluedorns, and Marlin Detweiler on our interviews page.
Now, a few words about particular denominations and how they relate to the Trivium. The Harp and Laurel Wreath also reviewed on the review page is NOT a Catholic book. It is actually a collection of classic poems that you could easily get in the library or on the internet. The value of that book is that everything is in one place, and if you follow her method, the book makes that effort easier. The author, Laura Berquist, is Catholic, and wrote her outstanding how-to book, Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum, from a Christian, Catholic perspective. This doesn't mean that you won't find her book to be helpful in your efforts. You obviously wouldn't use the catechism that she recommends, but you can easily substitute one for your faith. (See HomeschoolChristian.com's Catechism page for free catechisms for every denomination!) Her METHOD is very, very good and easy to follow. The Bluedorns have a totally different method and write from a Protestant (Reformed, I think) perspective. Even if you were Catholic, I would recommend reading their book as it gives many excellent ideas and encouragement and will help the most stressed out mom see that all of that heavy stuff recommended in some classical books is not necessary and might even be detrimental. The Bluedorns' books are soothing to the soul.
Rebecca: I would love it if someone could give me a bit of info about classical and tell me who you think it's good for. I can't decide what I want to do.
Martha R.: Remember that the classical approach is a method, so that means that you can use ANY material if you are following the method. In a nutshell, children memorize in the grammar stage, analyze in the dialectic/logic stage, and express themselves in the rhetoric stage. Read, read, read, and I am sure you will be led in the direction that is right for your family!
Jen: What is the benefit of Classical Homeschooling over other approaches?
Jamie Z: One major component of classical education is that it breaks learning down into the three stages of learning: the grammar stage, the logic stage and the rhetoric stage. Basically the grammar stage is a fact stage....where kids are really good at taking in and remembering a lot of facts. The logic stage is where they begin to ask questions about these facts and learn the Why behind them. The rhetoric stage is where they learn to communicate their ideas and beliefs about these facts to others. Therefore, it helps focus learning to the stage of each person. Grammar is very important since it is the foundation for all these other things and this is where language studies come in. There are many different ideas about the age groups for the above stages as well as how this is worked out practically in each person's education. Another emphasis that I have gleaned from it is teaching my kids how to think and glean knowledge for themselves.
Heather: I think the main benefit is that you teach in the way children learn. Jamie did a really good job of laying out the stages, so I'll not repeat that, but children in the grammar stage actually like and are good at memorizing things, logic aged children are curious as to why and how things work the way they do, and older teens are just itching to "express themselves". So you harness their natural inclinations to facilitate their learning.
Also, the Bluedorns point out that if you read Proverbs looking for it, you'll find three different stages of learning there--knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. They equate these to grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric, in that order. So, the reason it works so well isn't just that this is the way kids learn best, but because it's the way God designed kids to learn.
Unschooling to Classical?
Martha R.: I would encourage you to read the Bluedorn's book, Teaching the Trivium. (See the review page for more information.) The Bluedorns definitely have the most relaxed approach to classical.
How does TWTM differ from Christian Classical or the Christian Trivium?
Martha R.: You can sure do the 4 year history cycle deal with a Christian focus. You just have to consider whether it's appropriate to have such a focus on non-Christians (Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc.) for your little 1st and 2nd graders. Laura Berquist does not believe that it is, and instead, she recommends focusing on heroes. Another item to consider is would you rather spend more time and go more in-depth in later years on a particular period that interests your child. The 4 year cycle does not allow for true study of American history or for going very much in depth. (You won't have time to get finished unless you move on.) Additionally, you have to consider if you are going to burnout your young ones by pushing so much academics on them at an early age. TWTM definitely espouses the idea of LOTS of school early. The Bluedorns, Christine Miller, and Laura Berquist do not. The stages -- TWTM suggests that the grammar stage ends much earlier than any other source. In fact, the traditional school system (a remnant of the 1800s when classical education was IT) has "grammar school" (a.k.a the stage) going up to 6th grade. The Bluedorns, Christine Miller, and Laura Berquist follow more closely to this idea. The "Great Discussion" -- The Bluedorns and Laura Berquist do not believe that most of the "classics" should be a topic of study for Rhetoric Stage students, but rather they should be saved for college. This is a topic I'm looking forward to exploring with Christine Miller when I interview her shortly. One of the things that I'm finding very interesting (and in fact, a bit disturbing) is how many people are referring to themselves as followers of TWTM. The goals of the book (discussed in the previous post) are not the goals of most Christian families, and if you modify the book to become Christian, it's NOT TWTM. So, why not just say that one is doing the Christian Trivium with a 4 year history cycle, for example, rather than being a "follower of TWTM"? I'm very curious about this.
Sarah CB: Have you read SWB's chapter on religion? Or her article about Christian education? She stresses that "the separation of religious faith from education yields an incomplete education."
Jessica: The reason faith studies are not mentioned except on those pages is because the book is published through a secular publisher. W.W. Norton produces Norton Anthologies of Literature, very respectable. However, Bauer rebuked and wrote exactly what she thought of faith-based education on pages 40 and 47 and also here.
FLDonna: as much as I like some of the ideas from TWTM, there is absolutely no way on earth that I could possibly follow what they have listed for each grade plus recommended reading. Now, I have to say, on their behalf, that they do mention that it's not necessary to DO all of it. However, it still is a bit imposing. I like the Berquist book because, even though she has many excellent recommendations and suggestions, I don't feel compelled to do all of it. I have gotten more out of the Berquist book than TWTM.
Monica: Now, I've decided that the classical approach is just wonderful, but I'm afraid I've already messed my kids education up beyond repair. I have no clue where to start with history. Most of the curriculums are based on a 4-5 year program. I have a 4th grader and two that are at the 7th grade level. Where do I start with them? They're all still in beginner's Latin, and the older two are moving into advanced grammar. I'm just really at a loss with starting up a history curriculum and adding in logic.
Martha R.: Relax. You have NOT messed up your kids' education. Head over to HomeschoolChristian.com's review page and read the interviews that are associated with the reviews under the "classical education" heading. You'll get lots of ideas and I think you'll chill out a bit. I would suggest considering Cheryl Lowe's Introduction to Classical Studies. This will give you a gentle start with Roman and Greek culture and history WITH a Christian focus. You have SO many choices for history curricula, or you can use living books with no curriculum at all. Don't stress on it right now. Have you chosen a Latin curriculum? On the review page, you can see my Latin comparison chart to make a good choice for your family. Latin encourages logical thinking, so I would suggest focusing on Latin right now, and doing logic when you get comfortable with the other changes. I'd also recommend reading Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum by Laura Berquist and Teaching the Trivium by the Bluedorns. If you haven't visited Christine Miller's website, check it out. It's a good one! You can spend hours there gathering wonderful info.
Carol H.: What do I need to prepare my preschoolers for a classical Christian education
Martha R.: Read, read, read. Read aloud all kinds of things -- fairy tales, nature stories, Bible stories! Get the Wee Sing CD's and sing all the songs. Oh, PLEASE, don't do anything formal with your little ones. This is the time to snuggle and enjoy informal learning.
Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons is a great book that works for many children; however, there are some children for whom it doesn't work. Don't let that worry you if yours is one of them. There are lots of ways to learn to read! If your 4 year old is showing signs of being ready to learn to read, go for it! Otherwise, hold off till reading is a major interest.
Find more free curricula and resources on HomeschoolChristian.com's Curricula Page Index! See more Charlotte Mason and Classical Resources.
