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Christian Education Symposium

Mary We will begin in a few moments. You will only see your name on the screen in the audience, and you cannot type, however you will be able to submit questions. Don't worry about taking notes! There will be a transcript posted in a few days of tonight's conference.

Mary Our dear heavenly Father, be with us today as your servant, Doug Wilson, helps us learn more about how to teach our children with a Christian worldview. Keep us safe from technical glitches! In Your name, Amen.

Mary Welcome to tonight's conference with Doug Wilson. You will only see your name on the screen in the audience, and you cannot type, but you can submit questions to be answered after our interview by clicking on the question icon in the middle of your screen.

Mary Doug and his wife, Nancy, have been married for twenty-four years. They have three children, Bekah, 23, Nathan, 21, and Rachel, 19.

Mary Welcome, Doug!

Doug Wilson Thanks. It is good to be here, whatever "here" means in cyber terms.

Mary Let's start with the basics! What is Classical Education?

Doug Wilson Classical education, as we practice it, is built around the methodology of the Trivium--grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric. With this as the skeletal structure, we emphasize particular subjects which are not usually found in most schools. These would be subjects like Latin, logic, rhetoric, and so forth.

Mary Do you mean grammar in the strict sense of the word? Many folks here might not understand what grammar, dialectic and rhetoric mean.

Doug Wilson By grammar we mean the constituent facts in each subject -- the basic data.

Mary And the other terms? Dialectic and Rhetoric?

Doug Wilson Dialectic means basically the same thing as logic. This is the point where we sort out the basic data in each subject. Rhetoric has to do with how that knowledge is presented.

Mary Are those the parts that make up the "Trivium."

Doug Wilson Yes. Those three elements, taken together, are the Trivium.

Mary Would you share a bit about what started you on your leadership role in reviving Classical Education?

Doug Wilson The concern began with my responsibilities as a father. Samuel Johnson once said there was one good thing about being hanged in a fortnight. He said that it concentrated the mind wonderfully. The same kind of thing happens when you become a parent. All of sudden your thinking about things like education becomes concentrated.

Mary That is SOOO true! I remember thinking while pregnant that once we got through birth my worries would be over. HA!

Doug Wilson So when our oldest daughter was a toddler, we began thinking about starting a school.

Mary How does Classical Education differ from Classical Christian Education? What are the necessary elements that make up a Classical Christian Education?

Doug Wilson A Christian education is one in which all subjects are taught in accordance with a rigorous biblical world and life view. The Scriptures are the ultimate authority in every classroom. This authority is a *functioning* authority. We do not just pay lip service to it.

Mary How would you define a Christian worldview with respect to education?

Doug Wilson A Christian worldview requires a theology of children and generations. Generational thinking is central in the Scriptures; it is central to the idea of covenant. This means education, Christian education, is absolutely necessary.

Mary So, it sounds like you probably agree with me that Christian children do not belong in public schools?

Doug Wilson That would be a reasonable assumption.

Mary I know that's a touchy subject for many!

Mary How will a Classical Christian Education help our young people to be more effective witnesses to the world around them?

Doug Wilson It will help them because it will help them understand the world around them. How can they know what to *say* to someone when they have nothing to say. We do not just "witness" to an experience with God. We have to live faithfully in the world, and Christian education is the process of teaching us to do this.

Mary Amen!

Mary How does one go about teaching the grammar stage (the basic data needed) from from a Christian worldview presupposition?

Doug Wilson First, we have to understand that there is no neutrality. The facts of each subject are not "neutral" facts. God knows where they go, and how they fit in. Our task is to think God's thoughts after Him, and learn how they fit in. Every piece of information in the grammar stage has to be placed in a right relationship to the other facts in the dialectic stage.

Mary It sounds like a lot of our "studying" as parents is to be done on our knees!

Mary It has been said that Classical Education can only be implemented by highly educated parents. Would you comment on that?

Doug Wilson I would tend to agree. But this does not mean the parents' education has to be completed before they start the process. They, in most cases, will have to stay a jump ahead of the kids. But when they are done, they will be educated.

Mary That's what I've told friends! My dad taught a new subject to him on a college level by staying a bit ahead of his class!

Doug Wilson The sound of footsteps behind one is a great motivator.

Mary Ha! YES!

Doug Wilson Almost all of them have had to be "retooled." An education background is often a problem because in that case there is far more to unlearn.

Mary I've heard the same thing said about certificated teachers who begin homeschooling their children! Does it give them a new excitement for teaching, or do some of them burn out?

Doug Wilson The morale of our staff is high, and they have a real excitement about the task. Staff retention here is very high.

Mary That's terrific. What's the enrollment, and what grades do you have?

Doug Wilson The school operates K-12, and we have about three hundred students.

Mary We removed our daughter from a Christian school in the middle of first grade because we felt this school was not doing a good job. Do you have any sort of group, or advice to help Christian schools who want to aim for a superior Christian education, and not just be a humanist curriculum sprinkled with a few scripture verses?

Doug Wilson We have seen the same kind of thing. Our kids often came back from speech meets and math competitions with other Christian schools unable to believe what is sometimes done in the name of Christian education.

Doug Wilson The key is parents. When you build a school, you must cater to parents who are doing their job or parents who are not. You will get more of what you subsidize and less of what you penalize. If a Christian school operates in a way to take over from poor parents, they will attract more and more poor parents. But on the other hand if they set the curriculum up in such a way as to appeal to parents who are highly motivated in regard to their kids' education, you will get much more of that.

Mary Do you offer any assistance to other Christian schools that want a serious change? Is your school visited often?

Doug Wilson Our school is visited all the time. I think the kids sometimes feel like the polar bear at the zoo. We have started the ACCS, which is the Association of Classical & Christian Schools. We have about one hundred schools around the country pursuing this model for education.

Mary Does your school offer any services to the local homeschool community?

Doug Wilson The ACCS offers all kinds of help, including help to homeschoolers.

Mary Are there part-time students?

Doug Wilson Logos School does not have part-time students . . .

Doug Wilson George Grant has an association of co-op classical Christian schools.

Mary What is your take on what would happen to Christian schools and homeschools if vouchers should pass in more states this election year?

Doug Wilson I am afraid that many parents who take as good news for them. In a weird kind of way, it would be good news in the sense that it would really hurt governments schools. But the down side is that it would help bring private education under the control of the state. That is what I was trying to get away from. We would not accept vouchers.

Mary Thank you! I'm happy to see you take a stand. There are so many new "model" ideas coming about trying to lure the private educator (both traditional private and homeschoolers) in to accepting the "carrot!"

Doug Wilson Follow the money.  The one who takes the king's coin becomes the king's man. We cannot accept financial help from the state, and then claim independence when they try to control curriculum content.

Mary But we all know that that government money has strings attached! I've written several articles on this subject and welcome new ones on our Position Papers area.

Mary In a moment, you will see the Web site for Canon Press on your screen. You may click around in the Web site while remaining in the chat. Doug is a prolific author, and you can order his books there!

Mary What materials or books do you recommend for those who would like to know more about Classical Christian Education?

Doug Wilson For homeschools, a place to start is a booklet I have written with a few friends called Classical Education and the Homeschool.

Mary I noticed that one on the "Education" section on the Canon Press Web site.

Doug Wilson The overview of the pedagogy is found in Recovering the Lost Tools of Learnings. Nuts and bolts are shipped separately in a book called Repairing the Ruins.

Mary Great title!

Doug Wilson It comes from Milton's article on education.

Mary I strongly recommend that any of you in the audience take a look at the Web site for the Alliance for the Separation for School and State at http://www.sepschool.org and sign the Proclamation for the Separation of School and State if you agree.

Doug Wilson I think we will see a number of alternative academies develop at the junior high and high school levels so that homeschoolers can take advantage of the division of labor. I think it will continue to boom in the early elementary years as is.

Mary You may now submit questions for Doug to answer. Please give me a moment to take a look at them. If your question is not answered, it may have been discussed before you arrived, and you will be able to read the answer on the transcript later.

Martha Robinson {question presented} Doug, is Classical Education right for every student?

Doug Wilson No, I do not believe so. I think that every community should have a rigorous classical Christian school, but I do not believe it is right for every student. Everyone should have this as an option though.

Beverly {question presented} If I understand correctly, the grammar of say math would be knowing one's +/-/x/division facts. What would be the grammar of civics from a Christian worldview?

Doug Wilson The grammar of civics would be memorization of the basic facts -- the branches of government, the office holders, etc.

Beverly {question presented} I am soooooooo appreciative for your hard work on Credenda Agenda and would like to say thank you for your faithful service to the Christian community. Are there any seminars, magazines, etc., that y'all do that will assist those homeschoolers?

Doug Wilson The seminars would be the annual conference of ACCS (next summer in Memphis). Tapes from previous conferences are also available from Canon Press. Logos School also has a week-long teaching training conference every summer, which homeschoolers can take advantage of.

Mary Beverly's daughters are watching this conference, and they'd like to know who are your heroes in history!

Doug Wilson I list just a few. Alfred the Great. R.L. Dabney. John Calvin. John Knox. Robert E. Lee. Charlemagne. Athanasius. Augustine.

Mary I see you have no shortage of heroes!

Doug Wilson On the contrary!

Martha Robinson {question presented} Doug, Is it possible for a student who has been "traditionally" educated to transition to Classical? When is too late?

Doug Wilson After the concrete is dry, it is harder to do. But we have often said that we are trying to provide the kind of education which none have got. We were not able to do it adequately. But as G.K. Chesterton (another hero) said, anything worth doing is worth doing badly.

Mary Is there a point at a certain grade level at which you will no longer accept new students to school?

Doug Wilson No. If they can do the work, we accept them. But they will not benefit from that work in the same way that students who have been with us from the beginning will benefit from it.

Mary Beverly is begging your influence...

Doug Wilson Yes. Canon Press is planning a booklet by co-author Susan Wise Bauer as a supplement to her book. The secular publisher was nervous about the Christian aspect of classical education. But the author is not.

Mary Oh, I am thrilled to hear that! I had heard rumors about the publisher advising to remove Christian content, and I'm glad to see the authors will do something to help Christians out!

Civitan {question presented} Other than the Bible what type of reading material do you read and how much of it?

Doug Wilson I read literature, theology, commentaries, biographies, and political stuff. I try to read about a book a week.

PatH {question presented} If Classical Christian Education is not for every student, how do you determine who it is for?

Doug Wilson In most cases, this will be determined by the interests, gifts, level of commitment, etc. of the parents. Children overwhelmingly are shaped by the culture of the home. This is not universally the case, but it is generally true.

Martha Robinson Doug, can you offer encouragement to parents who would like to do Classical but did not begin at the beginning?

Doug Wilson My encouragement would be this. God has a general pattern of picking us up where we are, and not where we should have been. If He only helped us if we were where we should have been, we would all be in a world of hurt. Starting now is better than not starting at all.

EstherR {question presented} Do you know of any books that teach the progymnasmata from a Christian perspective? D'Angelo's book is sound, but his illustrations are awful!

Doug Wilson Not yet. Chris Schlect is working on one.

Beverly {question presented} Please define progymnastmata.

Doug Wilson These are elementary exercises in rhetoric. As the students are learning to speak, they work through these exercises. Rhetoric is learned by doing, and not just by studying it.

Martha Robinson At what stage do these rhetoric exercises begin? Grammar or later?

Doug Wilson They would be part of a formal rhetoric class, which would place it in the rhetoric stage in our school. In the classical world, they came earlier.

Caron {question presented} How can one include an understanding of and heart for the lost in non-Western cultures in a Christian classical education?

Doug Wilson Classical education emphasizes the culture of the West. This does not encourage us to disparage other cultures (those aspects of them which are lawful) any more than my love for my wife encourages me to disparage the love other men have for their wives. Because I love our heritage, I understand how others would love theirs. But this is with the proviso that all ungodly aspects of culture must be removed, including removal from ours.

PatH {question presented} This is somewhat related to my earlier question....have you accepted a student that you later had to tell the parent that a Classical Christian Education was not for them....if so, what did you recommend for that child's education?

Doug Wilson Yes. We have done this, but not often. When there has been good effort, we have tried to make whatever accommodations we can. In other cases, students come to this conclusion themselves (or their parents do), and leave the school.

Mary Doug, I'd like to thank you so much for joining us today for this conference! Thank you so much for all you do to aid those of us who desire to give our children a strong Christian education!

Doug Wilson You are very welcome. It was good to be with you.

Mary Thanks also to PrestonSpeed Publications for making this Christian Education Symposium available to us, and to Martha Robinson for her assistance with this interview.

Mary An archive of this transcript will be available on the Christian Education Symposium Page in a few days: http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/ChristianEd. See our schedule of events linked on that page for more information about our chats and conferences.

Mary If you would like more information about Doug Wilson, his books or many accomplishments and activities, please see the following Web sites: http://www.greyfriars.org and http://www.CanonPress.org and http://www.Credenda.org.

Mary For those of you who would like to visit with fellow homeschoolers about tonight's conference, feel free to move to our Homeschool Chat room. Click on the Site Map with the red "X" to change rooms. Thank you for joining us, and God Bless you and your families!

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