Return to Christian Education Symposium Web HSC

Christian Education Symposium

September 14, 2000

Douglas Schmitt of PrestonSpeed Publications Father we thank You for Your many blessings. Thank you for the work Cathy is doing to aid families who wish to educate their families at home. Guide both Cathy and Mary tonight as they speak. In Christ's name we pray. Amen.

Mary And may the Lord protect us from any other technical glitches! Amen!

Mary Thank you Doug. Welcome to tonight's conference with Cathy Duffy. You will only see your name on the screen in the audience, and you cannot type, but you can submit questions to be answered after our interview by clicking on the question icon in the middle of your screen.

Mary Cathy Duffy has spent many years doing extensive educational research. As the author of the two-volume Christian Home Educators' Curriculum Manual (Elementary Grades and Junior/Senior High) she has researched curriculum and methodology for all subjects and all grade levels.

Mary She home educated her own three sons all the way through high school. Her extensive research and experience has made Cathy a popular speaker at conferences across the country as well as a leader in the home education movement.

Mary Since Cathy's research convinced her of the value of individualizing education to achieve the best results for each child, she was alarmed at government efforts to standardize goals, outcomes, and methodology for all students.

Mary She began to investigate Goals 2000 and the restructuring movement and found that restructuring involved far more than the educational process. The results of her research appear in her book, Government Nannies: The Cradle-to-Grave Agenda of Goals 2000 and Outcome-Based Education. Her concerns about government schooling also prompted Cathy to get involved with the Children's Scholarship Fund, helping to create a $15 million private voucher program in Los Angeles in 1998-99. Her concern for maintaining educational freedom for both private campus and homeschools is her motivation for opposing Prop 38.

Mary Welcome, Cathy! You've been on my wish list of "MUST-have" speakers for several years!" I am thrilled to have you with us tonight!

Cathy Duffy I'm so glad we finally managed to set up a time to do this. Thank you!

Mary Vouchers keep coming up for discussion or election in just about every state, and in California, we have it on the ballot for November. Can you tell us about vouchers in general.

Cathy Duffy Vouchers provide taxpayer money to parents for payment of tuition at a private school. The idea of vouchers has been floating around since at least the 1980's, but they've become a serious issue with the institution of programs in Milwaukee, Cleveland, and in Florida. As government schools continue to worsen, people are desperate for solutions. They see vouchers as a way to rescue children and either fix or destroy public schools, depending upon their perspective.

Mary How does California Proposition 38 work?

Cathy Duffy The California voucher, known as Proposition 38, will provide about $4,000 per child per year for children to be used to cover the costs of private schooling or private home education. Any excess money can be "banked" with the State Treasurer and applied against future education expenses up through college. Vouchers may be used at any voucher-receiving school. These schools agree to use standardized tests used by the state's public schools, not to discriminate, and not to advocate unlawful behavior.

Mary Can homeschoolers participate?

Cathy Duffy Private homeschoolers operate as private schools in California, so they would qualify for vouchers at this time. But don't get excited. You will probably never see any money. Instead, the voucher is likely to bring homeschoolers nothing but trouble.

Mary Can you explain why this would be a problem for homeschoolers?

Cathy Duffy There are some folks in the educational bureaucracy who have long been opposed to homeschooling. Yet, because homeschoolers by and large do extremely well academically and socially, they have had no valid reason to justify regulating home education.

Cathy Duffy We have about 120,000 homeschoolers in California at present. $4,000 vouchers for only one year for those students would cost the state $480 million. Given that the average cost of home schooling is somewhere between $500-$600, lots of people are likely to view this as unfair donations to college funds for homeschoolers. THIS will provide homeschool opponents with the justification for regulation.

Cathy Duffy This does nothing to change private school law; thus it does not fall under the 3/4 vote requirement that prevents new regulation of private schools. Any homeschool legislation we get in California will be more restrictive than the present situation.

Cathy Duffy The result: no vouchers for homeschoolers since homeschools will no longer be private schools AND more regulation of homeschooling.

Mary Is that 120,000 number the number who file the private school affidavit or a guestimate? I'm sure there are a lot of underground homeschoolers who file nothing.

Cathy Duffy It's a conservative guestimate. I suspect it's actually more like 150,000.

Mary Will vouchers hurt private schools?

Cathy Duffy The history of government subsidies to private education both at home and abroad consistently demonstrates that subsidies are used to control the recipients. This is true with both direct and indirect funding. Colleges found out that even if their only connection to government money was that some of their students received government loans, the entire college falls under government control.

Cathy Duffy The most controversial controls have to do with "Title IX" which deals with diversity, non-discrimination, and tolerance. Hiring and student body quotas arose out of Title IX challenges. Rulings that colleges and universities have to fund men's and women's sports teams equally are another result.

Cathy Duffy We can examine the results thus far in the Milwaukee voucher program. I Milwaukee, court challenges resulted in additional regulations within the first few years. Among the most crucial regulations are requirements that schools not discriminate in the admissions process and that they allow any child to "opt out" of religious practices. This means Christian schools cannot give preference to Christian applicants, and if any child requests it he or she must be exempted from any activity that might be construed as religious. The latter challenge has yet to arise in these first few years, but you can safely predict that the best way for schools to respond will be by compartmentalizing all religious elements into religion class, maintaining a secular neutrality in all other classes.

Cathy Duffy These two regulations alone will almost certainly change the very nature of a truly Christian school. The Florida program has these same restrictions. This is what the courts will allow.

Cathy Duffy It should be interesting to note that Milwaukee voucher schools have been dragging their feet in regard to the admissions policy--probably because they are well aware of the danger to their schools.

Mary Is it true that the Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI), the largest private school organization in the world, is in favor of vouchers?

Cathy Duffy I have heard that they took a pro position on the voucher. It's very disturbing because their schools are very divided over this.

Mary Why can't we have a voucher with no strings? There are some who say that you're just a fear monger. What makes you so sure. (OK, so I'm playing devil's advocate here--you know how I stand!).

Cathy Duffy First the no strings question: The simple answer is a question: "Do you, as a taxpayer" want the government handing out money without adequate checks and controls? Most people are very aware of the rampant fraud in most government entitlement programs. On what grounds should we believe the voucher program will escape such attempts.

Mary I recently saw an episode of Frontline, where they showed this problem in Ohio. They had all sorts of private schools with questionable practices cropping up just for the money. Many disappeared within a year.

Cathy Duffy I set up the Children's Scholarship Fund program in Los Angeles. This is a private voucher program that offers scholarships averaging about $1,000 per child. When we began the program, we inherited 400+ scholarship recipients from a previous program. When we tried to "requalify" these students we uncovered an amazing amount of fraud on the part of both parents and schools. Less than 300 of the original group actually qualified by the time we were through.

Mary 25% fraud? Wow!

Cathy Duffy The problems will be huge with such large temptation. It's happened everywhere such programs have been tried.

Mary Won't the 3/4 vote protection put us in better shape than we are right now? What protection would we have from that being changed to a simple 50% majority vote?

Cathy Duffy It might provide some minimal protection, but it isn't the firewall it's touted to be. Attempts at fraud that prompt additional regulation would be almost impossible for any legislator to vote against--who wants to look soft on fraud?

Cathy Duffy If a shady operator starts a school, collects voucher money for a semester or two, then flees, leaving a trail of unpaid bills and a school full of "stranded" children, you can just imagine the outcry for more oversight and control.

Cathy Duffy Also, regulation can be brought in through other means. For instance, if a general law were passed requiring non-discrimination in hiring by all organizations (not just schools) that received government money directly or indirectly, then this could well apply to schools without a 3/4 vote since it doesn't single them out for particular attention.

Cathy Duffy Also, George W. Bush's education platform calls for federally-funded vouchers. Federal regulation will follow federal money, preempting any state protections.

Mary What about the legislation that passed that might force some Christian schools to hire homosexual teachers?

Cathy Duffy Actually the homosexual legislation is a classic case of why private schools should not take any government money. These new laws actually apply only to those schools that receive either direct or indirect government funding AND are not directly controlled by a church. Thus, the simple answer for these schools is to stop taking government funds. Private schools that do not take government money, directly or indirectly, are not affected by these laws.

Mary But that would mean that they can't take voucher money, which could also cause those schools to lose their student bodies, couldn't it?

Cathy Duffy It certainly could. That's the dilemma schools face--take the money and the control that comes with it, or refuse the money and probably go out of business.

Mary Perhaps this is redundant, but why do you think we shouldn't be able to get vouchers or something like this; after all, it's "our money?"

Cathy Duffy Our state and local taxes pay for a host of services: roads, water projects, streetlights, police, fire protection, libraries, AND schools. Jim Davis of Private and Home Educators of California did an analysis to figure out how much the average family pays toward education. The average family's income is $45,000 and they own a house worth $160,000. When you take into account state income tax, property tax, and sales tax, this average family pays about 39% of its tax money toward schooling--the dollar amount is $1,555.

Cathy Duffy When compulsory schooling and the common school system were developed in the middle of the 19th century, there were warnings and predictions about the results. But, it took about 150 years for government schools to fulfill the direst predictions. And now that it's happened, we shouldn't expect to retrace that 150 years overnight.

Cathy Duffy Many voucher advocates are reacting in panic: they want to do something no matter how foolish it might turn out to be and as long as there's some possibility of some short term gain.

Cathy Duffy But I'm concerned about my grandchildren and future generations as well. If in trying to provide a quick solution to the problem of government schools we do harm to private schools, what will we have gained? It doesn't take long for government subsidized private schools to resemble their directly government-funded counterparts. At that point, there will be no place to go for a good education, since both public and private schools will offer the same education.

Mary A scary thought, indeed!

Cathy Duffy There are some safe solutions, but they won't produce magical results. Among those solutions:

1. privately-funded voucher programs.
2. encouraging and assisting families that choose to home school.
3. helping to develop and offer low cost private education solutions such as:"community schools" where children attend classes three days a week, then work on assignments at home the other two days OR...on-line education that uses technology to reduce class delivery costs.
4. helping some families learn to live on tighter budgets so they can afford private school. (a really tough one)

Mary That fourth one will be a real tough one to promote, since this is such a "ME" period of time! But it really is true!

Mary Do you think that the goal of the Alliance for the Separation of School and State of ridding our nation of government-run, tax-funded schools is possible to achieve?

Cathy Duffy If you had asked most people one year before the Berlin Wall fell if it was possible for such a thing to happen, most would have denied its possibility. But things got so bad that the system could no longer sustain itself. I don't know how bad government schools have to get before parents quit sending their children. Obviously, many parents have already chosen private and home school for that very reason. But how many need to leave before the system collapses? Nobody knows.

Cathy Duffy We don't need a frontal attack on government schools--they're doing very well on their own self-destruction. If we simply keep working on the positive alternatives, expanding opportunities for more and more children, one family at a time, eventually, nobody will want to keep the government schools.

Mary That's a very interesting analogy about the Berlin Wall. I can't believe the number of new homeschoolers in our area alone, all telling me how bad the government schools are getting.

Cathy Duffy It seems that just about all parents of young children are at least considering the possibility of homeschooling.

Mary An aside...don't miss the transcript of the interview with Marshall Fritz, president of the Alliance for the Separation of School and State in our Christian Education Symposium area.

Mary What can we do to help fight Proposition 38, and is there any influence that people out of California can have to help those of us here in California?

Cathy Duffy There are heavily financed propaganda campaigns on both sides of Prop 38. Most people are not getting accurate information. You can help by passing on accurate information so people can make well-informed decisions.

Cathy Duffy The California initiative is only a part of the nationwide voucher debate. Governor Bush has made federally-funded vouchers part of his platform. We could soon find ourselves with federal money (and federal controls) of private schools through federal vouchers--an even worse situation. So this is an important issue for everyone, no matter in which state you live.

Cathy Duffy The Alliance for the Separation of School and State has links to a number of excellent articles on vouchers at www.sepschool.org/Questions/vouchers.html.

Cathy Duffy My own position papers (a 2-pager and a 4-pager) are posted at www.grovepublishing.com

Mary Thank you for writing those papers! We also have them here on our HomeschoolChristian.com Web site.

Mary Do you think that if vouchers passed that it would wipe out those government run charter homeschool programs that are only "giving" away $100 per month of supplies?

Mary Interesting thought that one government-run program could kill another one.

Mary What about those public charter school homeschool programs? Can you tell us a little about your feelings on those?

Cathy Duffy Charter schools are a great example of growing government intrusion. Many of the people who touted charter schools are behind vouchers. They promised that charter schools would be wonderful because they would be free of red tape and regulation.

Mary HA HA HA

Cathy Duffy Well, every year they get more regulation--4 new bills regulating them this year alone!

Cathy Duffy There are other reasons to be concerned about Christian participation in charter schools--many of the same reasons I don't believe Christians should send their children to traditional government schools. The more insidious problem with charter schools is that some school operators and some parents are disobeying state law law (that forbids use of sectarian teaching materials) and using Christian materials for their curriculum. And if they're not doing that, then they're using secular curriculum and, in effect, teaching their children that God is so unimportant we can learn about all the important subjects at school without including God. It presents an insurmountable double bind for Christians.

Mary If Prop 38 fails, do you think we are still heading for a homeschool law in California? As it is now, we homeschool in a rather "gray" area by completing paperwork that makes our home a private school.

Cathy Duffy I suspect there might be such efforts, but the authorities have no "political cover" for passing such a law IF we don't take government money and continue to do well in academic performance. Homeschoolers are more than capable of mounting a massive telephone assault on legislators if they try to regulate us without justification.

Mary Yes, we've proven that before!

Mary In a moment, you will see Grove Publishing (http://www.grovepublishing.com), Cathy's publishing company's Web site on your top frame. You may click around in that frame while viewing the chat.

Mary Cathy, do you have any books in the works at the moment? Any sequels to Government Nannies?

Cathy Duffy No, I've been too busy updating the Curriculum Manuals, doing Children's Scholarship Fund, working against the voucher, etc.



Beverly {question presented} Are you concerned that CA's Proposition 38 will set a precedent for other states?

Cathy Duffy Absolutely. People across the nation are watching CA and MI since both have vouchers in the works. They're especially watching CA since so much money and a very professional campaign have gone into trying to pass it this time. If they can't win with the best circumstances, then other states might give up. On the other hand, if it passes, it will be a huge encouragement to other states.

Mary I've heard that there is a millionaire who is dumping a lot of money into the pro-voucher campaign to counter the efforts of the teacher unions. Do you know who that is?

Cathy Duffy Tim Draper, a Silicon Valley multi-millionaire is putting about $20 million of his own money into it.

Mary Do you know what his motivation is?

Cathy Duffy He says he just wants to give children a chance. But from personal conversation with him, he seems totally unconcerned about negative consequences to private and home schools. This should be of concern if he is interested in long term results.

Ickabod2 {question presented} Where is the state going to come up with all the money it has not been putting out for private school kids? Or is it just for low income kids??

Cathy Duffy So much depends upon how many children leave public schools first. The program phases in over four years with private school students coming in the last year. The program is for all kids, including illegal immigrants! The economics of it get complicated.

Cathy Duffy If you start with $4000 vouchers and just about every child has one, how long before tuition prices rise well beyond $4000. Then parents press the government to increase the amount of the voucher to keep up with costs. Soon, vouchers cost what we would have been paying for government schooling.

Cathy Duffy There's no provision for administration costs for the program, so that has not been accounted for yet.

Mary I don't understand what you mean by private school students coming in the last year. Does that mean that children already in public schools won't be able to get vouchers until the 4th year?

Cathy Duffy Children presently in private schools will not be eligible for vouchers until the 4th year. Although I don't know what happens if you put your child back in public school this year so he can be eligible next year... don't get any bad ideas!

Mary Then, since we are a private school as homeschoolers in CA, we would be on the list to wait until the 4th year because we're already homeschooling. Is that right?

Cathy Duffy Yes, that's correct.

JulieW {question presented} What about private schools directly run by a church? Can they take vouchers and still keep Christianity involved?

Cathy Duffy It won't make any difference if the school is run directly by a church except in special circumstances. That happens to be one of the exceptions in regard to the homosexual hiring regulations that passed recently. But in the larger picture, it won't make much difference. If voucher receiving schools have to use state mandated tests, not admit students based upon religious beliefs, let students opt out of all religious practices, then what have they got???

Mary I don't understand what you said about homosexual hiring, and this next question asks this also. Maybe you can clarify your point about recent legislation.

Beverly {question presented} Are there any attorney groups that are using separation of church & state so Christian businesses/schools/etc. are not forced to hire sodomites?

Cathy Duffy Two recent bills passed that had to do with hiring practices of government schools and private schools. They cannot discriminate against homosexuals in the hiring process. BUT, the regulations as proposed (and probably as they will be approved) include only private schools that take government money directly or indirectly.

Cathy Duffy Also excluded are schools that are directly under the control of religious organizations. These new regulations have not yet gone into effect, but they soon will. This is really a wake up call for private schools to detach themselves from government funding, not ask for more.

Mary So, that puts us back to the problem of "accept vouchers and you have to be 'tolerant.'" Don't accept them and you'll go bankrupt.

Beverly {question presented} Couldn't the voucher system be fought in court as the establishment of religion (i.e., humanism)?

Cathy Duffy Thus far, no one has successfully waged a battle on those grounds thus far.

JeanSueLee {question presented} How will the vouchers be used, as cash payment from the government or in installments from the government?

Cathy Duffy Actually, the mechanism as written in the voucher won't work. We tried it with CSF, so I know this for a fact. The present mechanism has the state sending quarterly checks to the school, but with checks made out to parents.

Cathy Duffy Parents have to come to the school and countersign the checks over to the school. The problem is that there has to be a tight window of time in the verification procedure, issuing checks, then getting them signed. Schools are stuck with trying to get the parents to come to the school within a week or two (most likely). It takes tons of phone calls and nagging of parents to get them to come to the school. The school personnel get angry about it. They try sending checks home with students, but then checks get lost... You see the problem. And this has to happen four times a year.

Mary THAT can be a real challenge! When I had my daughter in a private school, my husband and I were two of a handful of parent helpers there. We never saw the rest of the parents!

Beverly {question presented} It is amazing that private Christians schools would support vouchers. Are you concerned that there are some homeschoolers that would support them as well?

Cathy Duffy Of course. There are many folks who do not understand the long term consequences of vouchers. They see only the short term benefit. Somehow they think this will be the first time in history the government gives out money without regulating recipients.

Mary Are there any homeschool support groups in CA that you know of who are promoting vouchers?

Cathy Duffy I don't know of any, but they might be out there. The major organizations (CHEA, CHN) are against it because they understand what will happen.

JulieW {question presented} Is there any way to get legislation proposed for families who don't participate in the voucher program get a tax break of the same amount?

Cathy Duffy Here's the question for any tax break: who qualifies? What are approved expenditures? How do you prove you qualify for the tax break?

Cathy Duffy If we're talking about education, then we're looking at what schools might be approved. Would it include homeschooling? Consider the evidence required for other tax breaks and you get the idea.

JulieW {question presented} I've never heard of the government program with the $100 per month. What kind of strings are attached to it? If that program has a lot of government involvement, can't that be an example for what is to come with the vouchers?

Mary Julie is referring to the charter $100/month that we have in California, I believe.

Cathy Duffy I'm fairly certain the $100/month program is one of the charter schools. These are government schools, so they have all the restrictions and requirements the state chooses to impose. That includes no mention of God, promotion of tolerance and diversity, non-discrimination against homosexuals, teaching to state tests, etc.

Cathy Duffy I've already mentioned that what's happened with charter schools is a good example, although this will be a bit different since charter schools were always government-controlled.

Mary You might also want to read the article & follow-up about Charter School Seduction on our Position Papers Page.

Beverly {question presented} So what can I & others that do not live in CA do to help stop CA Prop 38 ?

Cathy Duffy Obviously, people all over the country are discussing the issue. Pass on more complete information to people. Voucher opponents are accused of just being afraid. But you can point out the very real problems in Milwaukee and Florida. The documentation in my paper will help, too. There's also some good information at Christian Law Association's site http://www.christianlaw.org.

Cathy Duffy Also, remember to check out www.sepschool.org for principled articles on vouchers.

Beverly {question presented} It sounds like your CA Prop 38 is more of how churches respond to missions programs, except from a humanist perspective .... hmmmmm ... any comments? (e.g., illegal immigrants, "We're going to reach all children, accept everyone, etc.").

Cathy Duffy Yes, then schools become so accommodating that they don't teach TRUTH.

Mary Touché!

Mary Any last comments, Cathy?

Cathy Duffy Last comment: keep reading and talking about the issue. It's up to us to be well educated so we can help others understand what's at stake. This is hugely important in determining the future of education in our country.

Mary Cathy, thank you so much for joining us tonight! We all appreciate everything you do to help keep homeschooling free and legal, and to help us be aware of important issues that come up!

Cathy Duffy Thanks for having me!

Mary Thanks also to PrestonSpeed Publications for sponsoring our Christian Education Symposium. An archive of this transcript will be available on the Christian Education Symposium Page in a few days: http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/ChristianEd. See our schedule of events linked on that page for more information about our chats and conferences.

Mary If you would like more information about Cathy Duffy, her books and position papers, please see our Position Papers Page at: http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/Position and her Web site at: http://www.GrovePublishing.com. You can purchase Cathy's books directly from her and also from the Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Mary For those of you who would like to visit with fellow homeschoolers about tonight's conference, feel free to move to our Homeschool Chat room. Click on the Site Map with the red "X" to change rooms. Thank you for joining us, and God Bless you and your families! Good night.

http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/Position Cathy Duffy's voucher papers (2 page and 4 page versions, in HTML or PDF)

http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/Charter.html Charter School Seduction: Hold Out $100 per Month and Watch What Happens.

http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/Horn.html Give to Caesar's What is Caesar's (an apology by a Christian mom to her fellow Christians for being temporarily seduced by government bribes)

http://www.HomeschoolChristian.com/Forte.html Gift or Seduction (an article about government public school Independent Study Programs)

http://www.hslda.org/docs/IssueCenter.asp?IssueID=116 Reasons Home Schoolers Should Avoid Government Vouchers from the Home School Legal Defense Association.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/IssueCenter.asp?IssueID=116 California--Another Voucher Initiative from the Home School Legal Defense Assocation.

http://people.netscape.com/ccardiff/greatlie.html The Third Great Lie...GREAT article on Gov't homeschool programs by Chris Cardiff

http://www.christianlaw.org Christian Law Association

Books:

Government Nannies, by Cathy Duffy (Amazon)

Market Education, by Andrew Coulson (Amazon)

The Underground History of American Education, by John Taylor Gatto

Separating School and State, by Sheldon Richman (Amazon)

---

Questions/Comments? E-mail Site Administrator

Copyright © 2000-2008 Homeschool Christian.com
No part of this transcript may be used without permission.
Web Design & Maintenance: Argiope Web Systems